Does the New version have 3 Red Light Issue?

[mav2k]

I am going to buy Brand new xbox, Does the new version have  3 red light issue? Could I prevent the problem?

Thanks in advance

[Arakon]

Yes, the Falcon boards still have the issue, although it appears to have gotten less at least.

[gigabite]

yeap, they do but they are alot cooler due to the introduction of the 65nm CPU and GPU (depending on which motherboard rev you get) so you have "more time" before ....x |

gigabite

[Protonus]

From what I've seen by groups like Team Modfreakz, either microsoft has changed the heat profiles used for melting and attaching the BGA of the chips, or they've changed the solder compound they've used, as the new BGAs are crack free and more consistent.

Combine that with them gluing down the chips (prevents them from lifting out of the board), providing a better GPU heatsink that wicks more heat away and puts it into the air stream, and having chips that are 60 nm instead of 90 nm which greatly reduces their power and thermal footprints - I think they've greatly reduced the likely hood that it can have the classic "RRoD" problems.

[gigabite]

big cross on that....

first, they have not changed the solder...it is still lead free and RoHS compliant - I highly doubt they would have changed the mixture but it's possible

second, the gluing DOES NOT help/prevent the CPU/GPU from lifting off the board (if it did, why am I repairing boards with 3RL and glue? - yes I understand 3RL can be multiple "things" but i'll touch on this in a sec)

third, the "new" GPU heatsink does absolutely nothing - it actually cuts a whooping .2 degrees off the temp that's amazing !!...that's right not even a degree - and theres have been 2 accurate separate test by different people to agree

fourth, the cpu and gpu (depending on your board) are 65nm...not 60 - though you are right in that they do consume less power and produce less heat - though not enough to prevent 3RL WITH glue as there was a vid of a (iirc) Elite box with 3RL on maxconsole

fith, there are too many design flaws for the 3RL issue to go away or be reduced like M$ hope

gigabite

[Protonus]

first, they have not changed the solder...it is still lead free and RoHS compliant - I highly doubt they would have changed the mixture but it's possible

That doesn't mean anything.  If course it's Lead free and RoHS compliant, it has to be.  There are dozens of blends of solder though that meet those requirements.  You have no way of knowing that they changed the compound.  And what I mentioned was the heat profile used, this is much more important then the type of solder alone. 

second, the gluing DOES NOT help/prevent the CPU/GPU from lifting off the board (if it did, why am I repairing boards with 3RL and glue? - yes I understand 3RL can be multiple "things" but i'll touch on this in a sec)

Because glue alone can't stop the problem.  That doesn't mean it's not a good solution or a good thing to do.

third, the "new" GPU heatsink does absolutely nothing - it actually cuts a whooping .2 degrees off the temp that's amazing !!...that's right not even a degree - and theres have been 2 accurate separate test by different people to agree

This is the third time I've asked you not to post that, it's complete bull$#!t.  You can't back it up i've never seen a link or a picture or anythign showing this so called "proof".  Just reference to a forum in another language.

Quite frankly you're a fool if you believe that.  There is no way to know for sure WHAT i can do without measureing the GPU temperature with a thermister IN the GPU core.  Sticking an IR thermometer at the base of the chip and measuring heat in an OPEN 360 does nothing.

The new Heatsink design not only uses a differnt grade of aluminum (it's denser) - it has a better finish on the base of it, AND it moves the heat out of the GPU airstream into the CPU airstream where there is signifigantly more airflow.

EVEN IF the core temperature doesn't drop much with the new heatsink, THAT'S NOT WHAT IS IMPORTANT.  What's important is that it moves the heat AWAY from the area of the GPU and into the airstream.  Therefore keeping the board and surrounding components themselves, colder, helping to reduce board warpage.

I'll say it again, microsoft is obviously all about saving money in the hardware design, they would not have come up with this solution without testing to show it was working and needed.

fourth, the cpu and gpu (depending on your board) are 65nm...not 60 - though you are right in that they do consume less power and produce less heat - though not enough to prevent 3RL WITH glue as there was a vid of a (iirc) Elite box with 3RL on maxconsole

If you:
1.  Run your console vertical, thereby blocking it's largest vent
2.  Run it with high ambient room heat
3.  Run it in a dusty enviroment
4.  Run it in too confined of a space

Those alone will greatly increase the chances of the RRoD and can make any generation do it.

fith, there are too many design flaws for the 3RL issue to go away or be reduced like M$ hope

While there ARE multiple design issues, they have been signifigantly reduced in newer consoles.  The factory cooling solutions etc are much more suitable with the more efficent and cooler running 60 nm core'd chips, and will be even more so with 45 nm chips should they release them. 

It should be also noted that M$ could fix the problem almost entirely with engineering minimal effort, but due to it being a lesser issue now, it's not in their best interest. 

[gigabite]

yay and nay....proof....I just finished repairing (well yesterday) a 360 with 90nm chips...epoxy AND (your gonna love this) the new heatsink....repair as in dun dun dun !! 3RL HA - if there "efforts" made that much of a difference why was it in my hands for repair....you want the pics you got about 3 hours to post back before it's posted (but why would I lie...I have no reason ?)

gigabite

[Oneohm]

Lets get a few things cleared up here.
There have been many changes to the console. Very subtle but easily found. All have been to do one thing:
 Minimize board warping due to moisture and increase drive longevity. Yes the heat is a factor but only where it "sinks" into the board and dries it out. The constant drying and rehydrating of layer moisture in the fiberglass causes the GPU, CPU, Memory and southbridge to develop fissure cracks in the solder spheres as the chips being cooled faster than the board flex away from the board. The biggest benefactor of this board flexing is of course the biggest BGA device: The GPU. It has the largest surface area making it prone to the issues.

The first production run used rough cut GPU heatsinks with thin washers between the bottom of the heatsink standoff positions and the top side of the mainboard. These were in place to lock the heatsink and found to be unnecessary for that purpose. Should they slip slightly they may cause the heatsink to come out of contact with the device it cools. The thermal gap material was a Chomerics T550 pad with aluminum backing.
Flaws: The heatsink was too rough for even heat dispersion from the Chomerics pad.
The Chomerics phase change pads Aluminum backing was reducing heat transfer when the board flexed away from the heatsink.
The memory modules were creating thermal hot spots on the board which increased board warping.

Along came a revision which reduced what at the time was considered meager improvements to reduce a small portion of failing boards in extended testing at the California research Lab.
-Added Bergquist GPVOS Thermal Gap pads to the lower memory modules to sink heat out of the mainboard. (Thermal efficiency .8 W/m-K.)
-Removed Aluminum backing from Chomerics T550 thermal phase change material above the CPU/GPU.
-Removed the flex washers from gap between heatsink and mainboard to keep device tight to the heatsink when board warping occurred.
-Heatsink finishing was increased to reduce rough underside mating surface and increase heat draw.

Issues in repairs revealed more board warping than initially thought was occurring. After research in the lead free industry the addition of flex control was added.
-Addition on non-reflowable epoxy was added to the center BGA devices to allow the device to flex with the flexing of the board. This was put in place to minimize solder sphere cracking under the BGA assemblies.

The concern of excessive board warping continued and the theory of reducing GPU heat under the dvd drive was thought to remedy drive issues and board warping seen in the field repairs by channeling heat to an auxillary heatsink located under the intake vent.
-Recall campaign began to correct these issues.
-addition of revised Foxconn heatsink utilizing auxillary heat pipe to channel heat out from under DVD drive added to affected repair consoles.
-addition of epoxy to surrounding edges of BGA assemblies to counter board warping added.
-fatigued DVD drives replaced with Benq VAD6038 to minimize vibration inside of the console thought to be exagerrating BGA solder fissures.
-65nm GPU and CPU added as replacement parts to reduce board heat.

Production revisions made to stbilize mainboards and increase air flow by removing unnecessary somponents and changing the staggering of decoupling capacitors to increase air flow from the CPU. With the addition of the 65nm chipset, Thermal gap pads under the memory, revised heatsinks and revised thermal phase change material a reduction in the repair rate was noticed.

The main issue still exists. The mainboard is only 4 layers and is allowed to become dried out by the convection effect inside the console. (minimal ventilation of moisture build-up and excessive inner air turbulance) The console dries out its mainboard. Once shut off it becomes a hot sponge ready to absorb any air born humidity. Once the console is turned back on the board is warmed allowing the board to warp. The best solution would be to increase air flow by removing the excessive plastics surrounding the hard disk side car and add top ambient air venting along with bottom air venting. This would even out and reduce the board flexing by allowing the console to vent moist/heated internal air when shut off.

The sad part is that Microsft engineers are working on a 45nm chipset design that combines both the GPU and CPU in one assembly. This makes for one power source reducing the pin count but a possible oversized device. If the console itself isnt revised in its cosmetics to vent the unit we will continue to see Microsoft sell over priced humidity boxes. if they have any smarts they will move the new BGA package to the right and get it out from under the DVD drive.


 

[Oneohm]

Oh and Gig's right it. The new heatsink only externally vents an added 2 degrees of heat. But it gets the heat away from the board which is a step in the right direction.

[atiman]

Interesting! Thanks!
If humidity change is the key, what would you think about adding one of these little bags filled with a substance that absorbs madly humidity, inside console?