Signed code useless

[telesniper]

Ok, I have been thinking about this, but what exactly is the purpose of the singed code?  Two puposes:  one to stop piracy, and two to elimnated indie development.

Ok, well, the piracy thing is out 'cause for the hard core priate (industrial pirate, esp. ones were they are not persecuted actively like in china) will have access to pressing equip, if not now, then soon.  Yeah, DL pressing equip is expensive, BUT, not for long.  Also, they could used somekind of hacked burning equip + pre-written media (I imagine the chinese pirates would be able to procure some from some factory before it gets pre-written).
Well, Some would say that its to keep Xbox live all pure.  That doesn't work, because standard Xboxes, hacked to hell, running cracked cheatware, are used and will be used for a few years yet on Xbox live.  The only way this security model would stop cheating is if MS splits the service for xbox 1 and 360, or drops xbox 1 support alltogether (not likely). 

The only real explanation, is control (and $$$$ for licensing).  Obviously if you are a dev, and you want to create title, you must pay MS for the rights to do so, have your code signed, etc.  We all know that they are selling the box at a loss, so this is the meat and potatoes of the whole thing.  The scary thing is that this might be the beta test for TC.  This is the only way that MS has a shot in hell to counter OSS.  Yeah, people can say that the architecture used in the 360 would not work as a GP platform.  But if you look at all the industry players behind TC, you can see that this nightmare could become our future.  If AMD, Intel, IBM, VIA, etc. only make processors that have secure cryptoprocessor capabilities build right on the core, what can you do?    

On the other hand, I'm sure we would see some successful chinese fabs and mb makers mushroom at that point.  It will be interesting to see how TC develops (or hopefully stagnates) in the future.

[AceMilo]

It's for their security, plain and simple.  The only way to circumvent the protection is to modify the system, which is illegal due to the dmca.

[j005u]

It's for their security, plain and simple.  The only way to circumvent the protection is to modify the system, which is illegal due to the dmca.

did you skip this part or something-

Ok, well, the piracy thing is out 'cause for the hard core priate (industrial pirate, esp. ones were they are not persecuted actively like in china) will have access to pressing equip, if not now, then soon.  Yeah, DL pressing equip is expensive, BUT, not for long.  Also, they could used somekind of hacked burning equip + pre-written media (I imagine the chinese pirates would be able to procure some from some factory before it gets pre-written).

people really should read the rest of the thread before they post :S

[boddo]

[telesniper]

Eh, I mean all in all, it seems that the security model they came up with seems to concentrate much more strongly against third party code vs. being aimed at stopping piracy......

very weird and IMHO assinine design by MS......

[MacDennis]

Eh, I mean all in all, it seems that the security model they came up with seems to concentrate much more strongly against third party code vs. being aimed at stopping piracy......

very weird and IMHO assinine design by MS......

I'm not quite sure what makes you believe that, we all know that the security model tries to ..

• Prevent third party code, you need a license.
• Prevent piracy
• Protect xbox live
• And above all, protect their business model, these consoles are sold at a loss ..

Simple really ..

[telesniper]

* Prevent third party code, you need a license.

 
yep, pretty much the focal point

* Prevent piracy

 
The signing is the strong point of the box.  The CP in the disc is relatively very weak in comparison.  IMHO, by next xmas you will see bootletgs on streets of HK, etc.
 

* Protect xbox live

   
Don't know much about xbox 1, but isn't it common cheating common via modded xbox 1s?? 

  * And above all, protect their business model, these consoles are sold at a loss ..

 

Yes, their business model is based on licensing, since they do not dev the software.  The more titles put out, the more they make.  But they are suffering in this area the more they waffle on delivery.  The fewer consoles, the less it is attractive for devs, and the fewer potetntial sales for software period.  With regard to reason #2:  The more they delay,  closer pirates get to their goals.  Taken togetther, this would sour the prospect of dev for development for many as confidence is eroded in MS.

I mean, say I am right about #2, and MS shipping blunders continue (or demand is cooled) and pirates are cranking out bootlegs (doesn't matter where or how).  Wouldn't that really cripple the software development for this thing?

EDIT;  also, as far as I understand it, the Xenon functions as a secure cryptoprocessor, probably using symetric cypher on the cpu itself?  It fetches cypertext data from RAM and converts it into plaintext in the proc itself, then performs whatever operations, reincrypts it as cyphertext, and outputs the data once again as cyphertext?  Is this similar to what VIA does with padlock?  Symetric  block cypher is fast but requires perbox key to be written by means of eFuse?

[VinylPusher]

The only Live cheating I've heard of stems from gamesave editing (Phantasy Star Online) and messing about with downloadable content (PGR2, though MS patched that particular hole fairly rapidly). If someone has circumvented Live (and I though we were all set against investigating that arena?) then surely it would be front-page news?

I personally do not believe that anyone here can give direct evidence of a modded Xbox being able to connect and play on Xbox Live.

I threw down the gauntlet in another forum on this exact subject and everyone who said it could be done ended up making themselves very scarce when I said I'd stump up some cash for proof. I've got £25 in my PayPal for anyone who can provide reasonable proof of (and let's make this clear):-

An Xbox 1 fitted with a modchip (with whatever custom firmware you care to mention) booting a backup of a Live multiplayer capable game, signing in to Live, joining a game, playing a game. Then the Xbox to be power-cycled and the procedure repeated.

Sorry for semi-hijacking the thread but when I read the OP I just had to say something about this particular point.

[Arakon]

there have been ways, but they did NOT involve a chip or patched bios. and MS already closed up that hole too, close to two years ago.. in fact, they banned everyone's account (not just xbox) who did it that way.

[telesniper]

I don't play video games and realy didn't pay much attention to the first effort, but I know that Microsoft bans moded Xboxes from live.  I just assume they  do that for a reason, Vinyl.

[VinylPusher]

@telesniper: I'm aware of the why's and wherefores of microsoft banning modified boxes, that isn't really the point I was trying to press. Many people like to say "you can get a modded xbox on Live, everyone knows it has been done" when infact they know nothing of the sort. It just sounds Big And Clever to say it - it annoys me. I'm 28 and I get the feeling that (most of) the folks making these claims are half my age (if not younger).

So, I like to slap them down by offering them money to prove it. As has been proved twice now, rather than put up, they shut up.

I'm not trying to sound combative or arrogant (though I probably do, my apologies) but I would prefer not to read posts from people who don't know what they are talking about. As I once saw on a poster "Those that think they know everything are annoying to those of us who do"

[uberfry]

I personally do not believe that anyone here can give direct evidence of a modded Xbox being able to connect and play on Xbox Live.

heard about TS's firmware hack?

[AceMilo]

I do know of at least one VERY VERY respectable person in the xbox scene that said he was able to get a modded xbox on live a few years ago, but he would not say how, only that the method was very complicated and not really worth it.  If I told you who you would agree that they were not lying (but I won't).

[VinylPusher]

It's usually at this point that someone mentions a name beginning with Sniper and ending in Killa.

I may be wrong!

Please tell me more about TS and a firmware hack (i.e. provide a link).

[AceMilo]

He's talking about TheSpecialst's firmware hack where he got an unmodded xbox to boot copied (but still signed) games by modifying the firmware of the dvd drive itself.  The person I'm talking about was doing it in like 2002 or 2003

[VinylPusher]

Ah right yer. I did know about the firmware thing. Fair play

**EDIT** I guess you could have used that hack plus an edit of the downloadable content in certain games (PGR2) to cheat on Live. Do M$ not check for that hack now though?

[Dzgx216]

Hopefully, if when either a firmware or bios or whatever hack is available it will not enable people to cheat.  That takes all the fun out of the game and I hate that!!  I like to think that our community as hackers and enthusiasts can be more honorable than common cheaters

[VinylPusher]

Indeed, indeed. I agree, white-hat hacking is the only type I agree with. I support Microsoft's efforts in banning modded Xboxes to prevent them being played on Live. I love Live (even though I only ever play PGR2 and PGR3) and I would hate to see someone circumvent its security and enable cheating.

It has been done in the past though. Thankfully, M$ patched the hole reasonably quickly (certinaly before it got out of hand).

I doubt that anyone really active in the modchip scene would purposefully try to hack Live, it would be entirely counterproductive for Xbox users. I know I would give such a person a good kicking if I ever caught them

[p4m]

The real hack (in my opinon) is when the *hackers* will let us run unsigned code on the xbox 360

booting backups is just the beginning I hope

[telesniper]

Yes I wholeheartedly agree.  But from a business standpoint, the hack that enables "backups" would be more threatening, and it turned out to be the easier hack.  Very, very ironic.