Another glitch chip - X360Glitch, any opinion?

[pudrik]

I wanna clear up 3 things
1. there is no physical difference between this chip, matrix, tx coolrunner and probably a lot more chips out there, only difference is the PCB the chips are attached to (and possibly some extra components), they use the same firmware and same CPLD.

2. The "WIRE" fix is total bull$#!t, it might work sometimes but it has nothing to do with the LENGTH it has to do with noice induction, a better way of handling this is to have stable debouncing capacitors. (sure if a longer cable works for you then fine feel free to use it, but dont claim that it has something to do with LENGTH, GOD or the EASTER BUNNY)

3. Thickness of your wire doesnt matter in sence "i use AWG32" and "i use AWG28", if you crack the CPLD open youll see tiny tiny wires (almos lite silk threads) connected from the outside pins (huge compared to internal) to the airsuspended logic core within.
Too be blunt Bottleneck effect applies here not the outside wire.
(people claiming otherwise dont know what they are talking about.)

2. It is not bull$#!t. It does add propagation delay. But maybe a proper termination of the transmission line could also help or a very short wire. The needed rise time is very short.

3. Wire length is one part of the equation. The bonding wires are very thin but also very short. It's a matter of resistance where the cross section area and wire length plays a role.

2. Well ive read lots of stupid fixes that involve the wire and one solution counter acting the other for instance make longer wire but change resistor to less resistance, still the length of the wire itself doesnt have anything todo with the fact that it works, try using signal analyzing equipment and see how much difference 1cm makes before claiming that it does. Whatever causes it to work doesnt involve LENGTH if it picks up residual noice this is due to the location of the wire NOT LENGHT

3. Still when it comes to DC its the cross section as you meantion but the "smallest" cross section is still gonna govern the larger ones, so as long as you use wires with larger cross section then the microcontrollers internal gold silk wires your OK (this argument was to point out that it doesnt matter if you use 0.25mm or 0.30mm wire for sake of argument unlike what may people without knowledge claim)

[wiggim]

I wanna clear up 3 things
1. there is no physical difference between this chip, matrix, tx coolrunner and probably a lot more chips out there, only difference is the PCB the chips are attached to (and possibly some extra components), they use the same firmware and same CPLD.

2. The "WIRE" fix is total bull$#!t, it might work sometimes but it has nothing to do with the LENGTH it has to do with noice induction, a better way of handling this is to have stable debouncing capacitors. (sure if a longer cable works for you then fine feel free to use it, but dont claim that it has something to do with LENGTH, GOD or the EASTER BUNNY)

3. Thickness of your wire doesnt matter in sence "i use AWG32" and "i use AWG28", if you crack the CPLD open youll see tiny tiny wires (almos lite silk threads) connected from the outside pins (huge compared to internal) to the airsuspended logic core within.
Too be blunt Bottleneck effect applies here not the outside wire.
(people claiming otherwise dont know what they are talking about.)

2. It is not bull$#!t. It does add propagation delay. But maybe a proper termination of the transmission line could also help or a very short wire. The needed rise time is very short.

3. Wire length is one part of the equation. The bonding wires are very thin but also very short. It's a matter of resistance where the cross section area and wire length plays a role.

2. Well ive read lots of stupid fixes that involve the wire and one solution counter acting the other for instance make longer wire but change resistor to less resistance, still the length of the wire itself doesnt have anything todo with the fact that it works, try using signal analyzing equipment and see how much difference 1cm makes before claiming that it does. Whatever causes it to work doesnt involve LENGTH if it picks up residual noice this is due to the location of the wire NOT LENGHT

3. Still when it comes to DC its the cross section as you meantion but the "smallest" cross section is still gonna govern the larger ones, so as long as you use wires with larger cross section then the microcontrollers internal gold silk wires your OK (this argument was to point out that it doesnt matter if you use 0.25mm or 0.30mm wire for sake of argument unlike what may people without knowledge claim)

Wire routing is as important as wire selection and length, especially when dealing with high frequency signals. You seem to have a brain, and you are complaining that stupid people are posting stupid fixes, when you know all along how to actually fix it and seem to have the gear to support it...
If you see a stupid fix why are you even amused by it then? The problem is timing. This is a TIMING hack. we don't have perfect timing resolution, the chip is limited on its DAC when it can do its actions, 100nS pulse means we should have much higher resolution as to when to preform that exact pulse - we don't.. For this, we compensate by using hardware methods to perfect the timing on consoles that need it.

For some slim consoles, modifying the RST wire length did allow for the console to boot quicker. I can attest to that with 5 different slim consoles. I used 50CM length of wire and cut off 3CM intervals, after I had shortened the wire 18CM or so, the console started to boot consistently within 1 minute.  Before it would sometimes take 5 minutes to succeed.. Other slim units I left the 50CM wire in and got the identical result. All wires were identical (came with coolrunners) and installed identical routing.
I also had a jasper that glitched once to get CPU key and never again. I applied a 100nF capacitor between RST and GND and it booted within 10 seconds every boot.

Also think of electronics as plumbing. You claim the largest a wire is needed is the size inside the CPU dye... this isn't true and anyone who has done any electronic design knows different. Once you leave that protected casing, you are exposed to a multitude of noises in the air medium which your unprotected pins are part of.. crystal oscillators on the board radiating, high frequency video signal, motor inductions, magnetic fields, power supplies, For this, you have to ensure your signal propagates and isn't taken over by that stronger signal we dont want. Just because the water is coming from a 2CM large pipe don't mean the flow can't be strong enough to fill a 5CM large pipe... Just the 2CM will have a much higher flow rate than the 5CM will.
Generally electronics can output a lot of power right at the pins of the chip... this degrades over wire length through a noisy environment. using a larger trace or wire you can protect the signal to make it to where its going.

Also for wire lengths, the BEST advice I can give you on length not mattering is finding a computer motherboard of ANYTHING using a processor and RAM that has all straight traces... Im sure any mainboard produced in the last 5 years will have odd traces going to its CPU and RAM, they won't be straight to the point.

[TPMJB]

With R3 bridged I had cold boot problems on falcons. Console would glitch fine for hours, next day from cold boot
, nothing until the console warmed up. Found this thread and moved the bridge point and the cold boot problem was fixed.

Have successfully reporgrammed these using a nand-x. No bridging required. I spliced off the coolrunner cable.

Couldn't get this chip to glitch with any speed on a 16MB jasper, tried the 68NF fix with no improvement. Fitted a coolrunner and had the same problem, added 68NF cap fix and console boots like it's a JTAG. Posting this info for anybody with Jasper problems.

Had sam problem on jasper 512mb glitch time was about 20 -40 min even had to use multibuilder 0.2 to make it work (seems that it skips a crusial part needed for slim "fcrt" but doesnt seem to matter on fat)

It boots within 5 sec.
Try adding 100nf Capacitor between J4A and GND on chip.
(i think the reason for this is improper debouncing of the Reset signal, CPU doesnt recognice the signal as "VALID level" only noice)

Since I've done about 40 thousand boxes since posting in this thread originally, I feel as though I should share some things.

1) Cb6750 jaspers require a 680PF capacitor between J4A(?) and GND. Wire length doesn't change boot time. My Jasper went from 15-20min boot time to a maximum of 30 seconds (usually instant). I will note that you CANNOT find these at radioshack, mainly because all they do is sell cell phones and it's a terrible, terrible store. Buy online.
2) This chip is VERY temperamental with Falcon xboxs. Some work just fine while others have incredible difficulty. Seems to not depend on the CB. There's a thread up here somewhere on it. Have not tried jumping those other two points however.
3) Wire length only seems to affect slim 360s. I have never seen a phat 360 where wire length affected boot time. I'm using 20 gauge wire, which is a LOT thicker than everybody else is using, so that may be the difference. If I could find 30 AWG kynar wire nearby I'd be able to test that hypothesis.
4) The STBY_CLK point is a VERY bad point. One mistake and the xbox will no longer boot. There are plenty of good alternatives that even if you screw them up nothing bad happens.

In short, this chip pisses me off to no end, but quite a bit cheaper...

[tired]

Well I can't get this chip to work on a slim I have here. Done a few falcons and jaspers now but the slim is giving me grief.

All of the chips I purchased were the falcon type, so I have removed the relevant diodes, caps and resistors so that the board is now the same as a slim type, also added C1B which I believe should be 270pF?. Reprogrammed CPLD for Slim, using NAND-X and JTAG tool. Also created ECC file using JTAG tool and wrote using JTAG tool.

I have bridged C5. Have tried a 50cm wire for J9 and also a short a wire as possible, this console has never glitched.

Any suggestions would be very welcome, thanks.

[nicmon]

I've read the whole Posts but couldn't see a final solution to program this Board. Can somebody please help me to send a little diagram about Programing the X360glitch Board using Gligli LPT Programmer? Thanks.

[jackinthexbox]

Did you know you have to short "slim" points to get xilinx programmer to recognize this chip?

Tired, start with 50cm cable and cut 2cm at a Time untill you get a glitch, allso keep the long wire as close the board as possible.

[tired]

jackinthexbox

Would help if I wired it correctly, fool I am. Sometimes I miss the obvious!

Used quite a few of these now on all variants, always get good boot times, slims need a bit of fiddling around, same as other chips at twice the price. Shame the people behind the chip can't be arsed to correct there install instructions.

[wiggler]

Hi guys,

I need your help. I have one of these boards (the slim variation) but it just won't glitch my Trinity. I have double checked to make sure the connections are good. I reprogrammed it with trinity.jed v1.1 just to be sure. Ecc made with Multibuilder 0.7. I did have one bad sector in 2DE, but as that wasn't within the first 50 blocks I didn't remap. I can hear the fan "restarting" every 5 secs. If I reflash the original NAND dump with nand flasher/ cpld hooked up, the box is booting to retail dash as it should. I also tried to bridge the Phat points instead of slim points, but that didn't make any change.

What else could I try ?

[jackinthexbox]

Have you even tryed to use dif. cable length on CPU_RST? A Lot of slims do not boot at all with default wire length.

Take a 50cm wire, coil it and place it as close to the motherboard as you can. If it does not boot in 5 mins turn off and try again. If it still does not boot. Cut off 2cm and repeat the process. Do this untill you get down to about 30cm.

[wiggler]

hi,

thanks a bunch for your post! i had't tried to cut down the 50cm wire because i read (on xecuter forums, yes I know) that this was only to improve boot times. i also read that waiting too long for the glitch to happen would be bad for the SB.

Well, I did it anyways and after cutting about 10 times it glitched once! i immediately saved the keys and stuff over the web-interface. unfortunately it has only glitched once more since, but at least now i know for sure that the wiring/ecc is good

i ordered a few 270pf capacitors and hope that will also help with boot time.

[jackinthexbox]

Its allso good idea to try new wire location or dif. wire type. Stranded or solid core for example.
I for one use cpu_rst alt point ontop of MB. So i can but the MB to metal caseing. It seems to help. Ill try to take a picture for you today.
Its PITA but just mess with that one wire. Trust me... I have been there

Oh one more thing.
Applying preassure to the wire coil with fingers greatly improves the boot succsess in some cases. Basicly the closer the wire is to MB the better. If you get constant fan reset then just cut the wire another again. I usually cut 1cm at a time not 2. But it takes long.

Edit:
As promised - picture of my prefered setup

[wiggler]

Thanks for the pic

Unfortunately I couldn't get it to glitch again. It only booted up once with the hacked Dash. Tried different length again and also rerouting the wires. Gonna have to wait for the caps I guess.

[Xumpy]

I see that lots off folks use a matrix or a digilent cpld (or clone) for slims. The original topic is about the x360glitch chip.

I have bought me some of these chips (slim) and they work pretty well when you want to get your dvd key.

But it sucks to get just one boot when everything is back inside the case.

Also to get better boot timings I need to put the reset wire as far away from the board as possible. (so not onto the board as suggested by a lot off people)

I think that there lies the problem when I put it back inside the case, cause then it's not possible to hold that wire away from the board (or the metal shielding)

I might get better results if I change the wire (using wires from an old ide cable) to aw30. But I need to find these wires.

So for the moment I do not recommend this chip but on the other hand the problem could also be at my setup.

Does anyone have consistent positive results with this chip even when you put it all back inside the case??

Regards

Xump

[jackinthexbox]

These chips are great. Bring the wire ontop of the motherboard. like on the picture below.
Yes it is not x360glitch chip but thats not the point. I have installed over 10 x360glitch chips and all have worked just great.
http://www.upload.ee/image/2040948/IMGP7858__Large_.JPG

[Xumpy]

jackinthexbox I also see that your using a 271 cap. I've tried to use those, but with the x360glitch it causes the cpu to tick, unless I would make my wire 50cm long but I have never successfully glitched with that cap on...

Is that normal for the x360glitch??? Maybe the x360glitch does allready have a cap on it at some place (although I could not find it)

I will try that alternative point, but when my wire comes to close to the cpu, the cpu would also start ticking.

I think I need better wires... It's funny though cause when the xbox is out of the casing it glitches just fine. Ok it can take up to 2 minutes when it's in a bad mood but most of the time between 10 and 30 seconds...

Regards

[jackinthexbox]

I have never added or replaced x360glitch chips's capacitor.
Yes the ticking is normal. Just secure your wire and start cutting 1cm at a time untill its does not tick and glitches consistantly well. I reccomend you to bring the CPU_rst wire ontop of the board. That way you can but the MB into metal casing. Secure one end of the wire to the alt point ontop of the board with hot glue and start cutting only from glitch chip side. After each cut secure the wire to the board again. As sayed,

[wiggler]

The x360glitch has a 220pf cap on it, but that can be easily replaced, see here http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=737338

Still have to glitch my slim successfully again. I added the cap, I guess I will have to redo the wire cutting story.

[Xumpy]

Thnx wiggler, I suspected this but I wasn't sure now I am. Going to try to experiment with that.

Regards

Xump

[xColorado880]

anyone know a good place to buy these in the US?

[Xumpy]

I can confirm that changing the cap of the x360glitch chip to a 270pf cap worked like a charm.

My slim glitches most of the time within 30 seconds. (sometimes even 6 seconds)

But when I put it back inside the case the glitch is like 2 minutes (still not bad, first it wouldn't glitch at all).

I'm going to try it with the alternative point. If that doesn't work then I'm going to change the cap from 270pf to 470pf.

The console can not glitch when it's out of the case with a 470pf cap but maybe when it's inside the case I might have more luck...

I wonder why the case is such an important factor with the slim in the glitching process and if there is a way to take it out off the calculations???

I'll keep my progress posted

Regards