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Author Topic: Nand compare & reconstruction tool  (Read 21641 times)
rab
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« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2009, 01:00:36 PM »

New version posted, apparently the larger block size was incorrect.

- Fixed the block numbering issue for large nands, based on the info supplied in this thread (thanks Chemodile & ChrishX from xbox-scene forum).
   Note: this is the only functional change since v1.2 and users of 16mb nands have no need to update. If for any reason you want to stick to large block numbering for large nands you can also stay at v1.2.
- More responsive gui (especially noticable when processing large nands).
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rab
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« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2010, 05:46:49 PM »

New version posted.
Allows any size image (must be multiple of block size) so you can use it for partial backups of large nands.
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ReverseAffect
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« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2010, 06:52:28 PM »

New version posted.
Allows any size image (must be multiple of block size) so you can use it for partial backups of large nands.
can you uploaded to somewhere else to...
rapidshare either don't load or just times out....has been since the first release...
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sick like a mofo..not reballing for a while...
Gazcoigne
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« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2010, 05:25:20 PM »

top marks for making a great tool

but surely it is time wasted?

IMHO it is stupid trying to reconstruct a NAND, if you dont get matching dumps you shouldnt proceed. been said many many times.

i'm not bashing your work or disrespecting you, I think that its a great piece of code, but how can you be sure that you are making a good nand image with it?

what do you have to compare your reconstructed image to? too many IF's in the equation for my liking.

if you are dumping $#!t you are reconstructing $#!t and flashing $#!t and could lead to more problems later down the line for some people

you shouldnt make it seem ok to have dumps that dont match, it's not ok!!

i had issues dumping NANDS before also, only slight differences but chose to perfect my setup rather than run the risk of f***in up a customers xbox.

all i see are posts of noobs saying help i didnt get matches but i flashed anyway!!

apps like this give false security and the sense that this app will save their xbox when in some cases i'm sure it wont.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 05:27:25 PM by Gazcoigne » Logged

rab
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« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2010, 06:13:24 PM »

IMHO it is stupid trying to reconstruct a NAND, if you dont get matching dumps you shouldnt proceed. been said many many times.
Your opinion indeed, but wrong.

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i'm not bashing your work or disrespecting you, I think that its a great piece of code, but how can you be sure that you are making a good nand image with it?
what do you have to compare your reconstructed image to? too many IF's in the equation for my liking.
The logic is pretty simple. It relies on the the fact that the random read errors this tool is designed to work around are just that, random read errors, so they won't repeat. If you get multiple identical reads of a block that match you can be pretty sure that that block read fine.

What's your method? You do 2 reads and check they match? You are making the same assumption, that any given read error wouldn't repeat. If that's an incorrect assumption you are no more sure your reads are good than ones reconstructed with this tool.

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if you are dumping $#!t you are reconstructing $#!t and flashing $#!t and could lead to more problems later down the line for some people
you shouldnt make it seem ok to have dumps that dont match, it's not ok!!
I hope you can now see why you are wrong about this.

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i had issues dumping NANDS before also, only slight differences but chose to perfect my setup rather than run the risk of f***in up a customers xbox.
Good for you. And I'm pleased you aren't using this tool to make money, it's really disappointing to find things you've given away being used for financial gain. Of course my contribution to the 360 is pretty insignificant, I'm sure the authors of xbreboot and the like would be much more disappointed.

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all i see are posts of noobs saying help i didnt get matches but i flashed anyway!!
apps like this give false security and the sense that this app will save their xbox when in some cases i'm sure it wont.
Have you seen any posts saying they had 3 bad reads, from which they were able to reconstruct a good image with this tool, sanity checked it in flash 360 (as the readme tells you to) and then later found they still had a bad image? I suspect not.
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littlestevie360
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« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2010, 10:59:46 PM »

im more inclined to agree with Gazcoigne, this does give a false sense of security, i have seen 1 box recently that had your tool used and it still bricked it.

as for customers side of things, i dont know about Gazcoigne, but my customers are people who want the homebrew hack, but are incapable of doing the soldering and dumping correctly without f****** things up. Does it sound unfair to you that i am charging so people arent lifting traces and test points, baring in mind look around at how many posts are on this forum alone with topics like, "help me... just f***** DB1F1"

while i can see your morals about this, there are reasons that we do this, i dont know about you but im not going to *give* my time away
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rab
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« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2010, 08:19:21 AM »

im more inclined to agree with Gazcoigne, this does give a false sense of security
I've explained how it works and what scenario it's for. In this scenario you can be as sure of a good result as having just got 2 matching reads off first go. Therefore there is no greater false sense of security than you would have from not needing this tool.

I'm sorry I can't explain that any more clearly if people don't understand that. If people think this tool does something other than what it states then they have generated the false sense of security themselves, not me.

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i have seen 1 box recently that had your tool used and it still bricked it.
Odd, I didn't hear anything from you or the person in question before now.

What exactly was the problem? Give specific details of the problem and the scenario in which it occurred (including confirming that the owner of this other box you've "seen" read, understood and followed the instructions?). Please include the 3 dumps they used and the reconstructed output so I can validate this claim. If there is a genuine problem that can be addressed in the tool, or a disclaimer for a particular scenario that this tool cannot be used for (beyond the explanation already given), I would be happy to do so.
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Gazcoigne
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« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2010, 02:15:13 PM »

im more inclined to agree with Gazcoigne, this does give a false sense of security, i have seen 1 box recently that had your tool used and it still bricked it.

as for customers side of things, i dont know about Gazcoigne, but my customers are people who want the homebrew hack, but are incapable of doing the soldering and dumping correctly without f****** things up. Does it sound unfair to you that i am charging so people arent lifting traces and test points, baring in mind look around at how many posts are on this forum alone with topics like, "help me... just f***** DB1F1"

while i can see your morals about this, there are reasons that we do this, i dont know about you but im not going to *give* my time away

my point exactly, not every1 is confident enough to do the mod, and a lot wont take the chance.

whats the problem in charging for that? im charging for the time spent soldering, desoldering and flashing etc same as i would if they wanted 12V mod or custom lighting etc you think im gonna find the 1st person who installed an LED in a console and pay them royalties? wise up.

again what if your dumps spit out the same garbage at the same point? is it good data? dont think so. your logic is not sound.

i reiterate my point that if you dont get 100% matching dumps you should not proceed, and trying to reconstruct a good nand from a pile of dung is pointless and really is skating on thin ice, it may work for you once or twice but sooner or later your gonna end up with a f***ed up xbox

and are you then going to be held responsible for that? love to see you firing out replacement xboxes coz ur tool made some1 think they could proceed with a bad setup.

and the point i made about not continuing if you aint got matching dumps has been said by more respected members of this community than you. Its even on free60 page ffs.

theres no need to be so defensive you can get critisism as well as praise here you know.

personally i will never ever use your app nice as the theory behind it is because im not prepared to take the risk, with my own or any1 elses xbox and i would also urge any1 reading this to look at their setup before they assume your app will be their saviour.
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rab
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« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2010, 03:06:23 PM »

again what if your dumps spit out the same garbage at the same point? is it good data? dont think so. your logic is not sound.
i reiterate my point that if you dont get 100% matching dumps you should not proceed
Please explain, logically (use examples if you need to), where the flaw is in my logic.

Meanwhile, allow me to explain the error in your argument.

You are assuming that if you do two reads and they match they must be good reads. This is not really true, you may have some odd scenario that causes a bad read, where that bad read happens in the exactly the same way every time. I.e. you read block 0 twice, you are given the same data twice, but that data is wrong (assume then, for completeness, that the rest of the chips reads fine). So you now have two matching dumps, which based on what you are saying means you have a good dump, right? Obviously not, so clearly your premise is incorrect, however you and everyone else (me included) accepts this premise. And luckily I can't really imagine a scenario that would do that, and that's why people who just do two dump that match generally don't come back complaining.

Now, this is the exact same premise that this tool works on. So although in theory it is flawed, in practise it's good and you, me and everyone else is happy with it.

When you have your two matching nand reads (done in full, your way), if you do a third and it doesn't match (say it has one random byte different in the whole 16mb image) what do you say? That third image must have had a read error, right? That can't be the right one and the other two wrong, because the other two matched. And what are the chances of two wrong ones matching? That's the logic you are using in saying that two matching nands must be right.

The only additional assumption that this tool makes is that you don't need to work with the entire nand image at one time. If you read the first 8mb of the nand twice and they match, then you read the last 8mb of the nand twice and they match, why can you not join the first half and last half together and make a full nand? No good reason why you can't. Suppose you make a third read of the one half of the nand, but this time it has a byte different? You'll conclude this one was the read error. The other two were the correct ones, because they matched.

This is all the tool does, but it does it at the block level which is smaller. The risk of a purely coincidental matched misread does increase with the smaller unit of comparison, but in a 16k byte block the chances of this are a lot worse than winning the lottery. If it's a non-coincidental match, from that theoretical scenario we can't think up, it'll hit you as bad as it hits me.

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trying to reconstruct a good nand from a pile of dung is pointless
Luckily that's not what the tool is for. Well, I have no control over what data you give it, you can give it 3 pieces of dung if you like, but it won't be able to turn that into a complete image. Unless you give it 3 identical pieces of dung, in which case it'll quite happily reform them into a new piece of dung. Of course if they're identical they'll already have passed your test of their quality, so using this tool leaves you in no worse a position. Then of course there is the instruction to sanity check the produced image in something like 360flashtool.

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and are you then going to be held responsible for that? love to see you firing out replacement xboxes coz ur tool made some1 think they could proceed with a bad setup.
I'm no more likely to do that than you are after telling people that matching dumps are what you are looking for. If this tool will fail it will be for the exact same people your test fails for.

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theres no need to be so defensive you can get critisism as well as praise here you know.
I'm explaining. If that's being defensive wouldn't you have to concede that an unprovoked attack against something using an invalid argument is aggressive (weapons of mass destruction, anyone?).

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i would also urge any1 reading this to look at their setup before they assume your app will be their saviour.
Yes, that's a good idea. A properly working setup will save you time and effort. However there are many reasons why a setup may not be perfect, not all of which are fixable (I have one LTP port in my house, it appears to suffer some minor timing issue or such like, preventing it getting consistent reads of a whole 16mb in one go), that's why this tool was written. More serious errors will not get you as far as this tool or this tool will not give you anything claiming to be a good image.
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littlestevie360
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« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2010, 11:31:13 PM »

the issue IMO is not necessarily that the reconstructed image may be bad, its leading people to believe if they cant get a 100% valid dump that they can write,

it has been shown time and time again, if you have problems reading, then you will have problems writing too, you should be trying to solve why its not giving 100% dumps not, "oh its ok, i have 3 dumps that match for the majority with a few small read errors, i'll just reconstruct." this is specifically where the issue is IMO. thus a false sense of security. The issue at hand is if you cant read correctly then you cant write correctly.
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rab
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« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2010, 02:32:13 AM »

the issue IMO is not necessarily that the reconstructed image may be bad, its leading people to believe if they cant get a 100% valid dump that they can write
...
The issue at hand is if you cant read correctly then you cant write correctly.
Also not a problem. If you write your new nand, yes it could have the odd few blocks written incorrectly. That's why you should always read it back and compare what you get back with what you wrote. You should be doing this anyway, regardless of whether you originally got read errors or not.

If any written blocks don't match you can simply rewrite that block, then reverify it. Quick and easy. Did anyone actually read the readme?

If you can read fine 99% of the time you can easily reconstruct around the random read errors. If you can write fine 99% of the time you can easily fix any random write errors.
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superspeed
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« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2010, 06:24:03 PM »

I have 9 bad dumps I used this tool to try to reconstruct the nand. it said that not all blocks were recoverable. So I wrote a freeBOOT.bin from my previous jtag and that did not solve the problem. Anyone help with this? I do have a good nand and freeboot from another donor xbox if that helps.
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